Large 16.04 LTS updates

I’m still kind of new to Linux, having just started with Linux Mint 18.3 about 2 years ago. I now have LM 20 on my laptop and LM 19.3 on my desktop. But I too, got the same feeling about the updates.

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Hey @easyt50 So we are about the same on the Linux pathway and both using ubuntu based systems. I am also using native ubuntu 16.04 LTS and we both are a little wary of frequent large updates. :frowning: I might jump to something Minty when LTS runs out. @abhishek reckons Mint is better than ubuntu for beginners…

but…. For me it is also a choice of direction and trust…

Still I have some time yet to make a choice for an ubuntu alternative system. Well, hello Debbie :woman: Debian :cupid: No doubt a topic will be raised nearer the end of life for 16 :ghost:

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Re Mint-Ubuntu free, yes they released LMDE several months ago, and, it is GOOD. Please let me suggest you check it out: https://linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php. Burn it to a DVD and run it as a “live dvd”, to see for yourself. I’ve been a “more than satisfied” Mint user for 12 years now.

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Thanks @tosim91 I have explored mint and MX via live DVD previously, was hoping for less bloat than ubuntu but it seems their goal with LMDE-4 is to make it as close to current mint as possible. :roll_eyes: Still, not relying on canon ubuntu is a plus for me :slightly_smiling_face:
So we have our own FOSS page LMDE review that isn’t a review at all - just a paste job! Please could we have something better or is it so close to mint-19 that it is not worth the time and effort?
Comments section though is quite interesting with some alluding to my worst nightmare that ubuntu and regular mint 19 -20 are getting like a bloated Win10 – Gah :nauseated_face:
Makes me feel like staying as far away from both brands as possible – perhaps revisit MX-19 Linux or investigate Hyperbola GNU/Linux and PureOS.
:deer: gNewSense Skeleton :skull_and_crossbones: may make an appearance in 2021.

Tux Machines have some sort of supposed review by listing other sources of information and there is also a video as you scroll down - LMDE 4 Debbie Run Through – Poor low resolution but gives some idea of what to expect. :face_with_monocle:

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I have used, and have, both AntiX, and MX each on older laptops, and also on a bootable flasahcard using the program Pentoy. If you want OS’s that are very small, have no junk, and are extremely fast, you should checkout various “Puppies” and “Dogs”. I’ve been “playing” with many different ones for about 3 years now, and they come in 32b and 64b OS’s. I’d recommend FossaDog,64b to start. Very current, very fast, LTS. Great help in all Puppy and Dog forums.Below
are 3 GREAT Puppy/Dog url’s.
https://debiandog.github.io/doglinux/zz04fossadog.html

              https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=478  

              https://forum.puppylinux.com/

Hi @tosim91 Like what you are doing checking out other OS variant distros. Also like your post because it confirms that lightweight variants are viable. I presume one of them is used regularly? However as I wish to be free from ubuntu when 16.04 is no longer supported; found your link was going in the wrong direction for me because it says FossaDog is a fork of “DebianDog” with the difference that it’s Ubuntu based. Perhaps the other dogs are more obedient? DebianDog or BusterDog. Hope these do not have the reported backdoor? Drifting off topic here but as Nils Torvalds (a Member of the European Parliament (MEP), Nils was present at recent committee inquiry held on the “Mass Surveillance of EU Citizens”. Here, representatives from a number of companies named in documents leaked by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden) said…

“When my oldest son [Linus Torvalds] was asked the same question: “Has he been approached by the NSA about backdoors?” he said “No”, but at the same time he nodded. Then he was sort of in the legal free. He had given the right answer, [but] everybody understood that the NSA had approached him.

The NSA said at around the same time that the only backdoor missing was into iOS (implying it had all others incl Linux covered) but that is now done for them by Crapple…did they even write it…?

As I implied before; there is also an element of trust…. Do you trust ubuntu and mint?

Hoping FSF and their sponsored gnu project is okay? Trisquel included? They seem to be aware of and are not shy about publicly naming offenders in their view and what software should be.

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I don’t think, the NSA was talking about Linux when they said “the only backdoor missing was into iOS”. They were probably referring to Microsoft OS and MacOS, possibly to ChromeOS and Android.

I think, we can be pretty sure that at least the Linux kernel has no purposefully introduced backdoor.
The same can surely be said about major open source applications.

I might be naive but I believe, any well maintained and updated Linux installation on a computer with a user who knows what she is doing, should be secure enough to prevent random hacker attacks. An encrypted file system provides another layer of security against unwanted physical access to the device.

However, if I needed to prevent a targeted attack, I would switch to Arch, compile everything from source and reduce applications and usage to a minimum. For a secure server, I would probably even think of switching from Linux to FreeBSD.

Remember: The biggest security risk is usually in front of the computer, not inside.

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FYI- Debian has been around since 1993, (see:https://www.datamation.com/open-source/7-reasons-to-use-debian-and-3-reasons-not-to.html), and there are many Linux OS’s based on it. If you are interested in the Puppy and Dog OS’s, and do not want a Debian, or 'Buntu based(basically sameo,sameo), go the main Puppy forum site and signup, and then post your desires. They will gladly, and quickly, accomodate you.

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Hi @Mina Not sure if Edward or Gary McKinnon would agree with you on this –

or…

however I would suggest that any person of any gender – taking your lead would have installed the update containing the backdoor by hackers – Oops! Yes, they sure did. :open_mouth:
For example:-

Now we find ubuntu has a backdoor provided by canon itself – does this make it a frontdoor – hmm :shushing_face:
In reality your every page visit and every action is recorded and sent to the Land of the Free! :us: It, PRISM or WHY was introduced at some time in an upgrade or the ability for it to be embedded. :supervillain:

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I don’t know what are you referring to with this statement.

I know and I don’t like it, but: My main concern is not the NSA or the Chinese or Russian intelligence but the possibility that backdoors could be used by criminals.

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Hi @Mina I don’t think you read the Linux Reviews link that I posted – a couple of posts above.
I have pasted it here for you – as you will see it is very clear from Mr Clem Mint…

If you then take a look at the implications of what the owner’s of ubuntu in partnership with goolag are doing … Yikes :nauseated_face: think I am done with ubuntu forever. They even describe it as infected Canon Malware:supervillain: It runs as root, and it installs itself without asking you. :astonished:
For a better understanding – again, go back and read the gnu org link I gave you and then click the insecurity link on that page.
Who knows what is in the ubuntu software? Do you trust it – Mint most definitely does not.

I actually had read it. Whilst I do see the problem, I personally consider the term Canonical Malware as to be hugely exaggerated.
Whilst I never used plain Ubuntu nor did I ever enable snapd on my system, my understanding is that snap applications run in a sandbox.

I strongly believe that every user has to find her personal balance between security, privacy and usability based on her personal needs and preferences and I also believe that most cases where personal data is misused have their origin in bad personal choices.

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@Mina I respect your opinion but believe the mint developers and users have a substantially different opinion to yours - as can be clearly seen and read by all.
You then write

Hey, this is not a personal choice when…

… personal choice has nothing to do with it save for using ubuntu in the first place :roll_eyes: or having goolag, crapple, NSA watching over your shoulder recording your every move and location :scream:

I think both of you have good points, but I think the real issue is, that you both are a bit digressing from a single topic, into 2 different topics.

@Andy2, you are right, about all the problematic surveillance, which certainly is not just OK and to be accepted by everyone. However, I personally think, and I guess many can agree with me, just because data is collected, it is not bad, per sé. The bad part is, when big data is misused and in the worst case is misused in a way, the user does and cannot know about, because he was actively mislead.
That said, I sometimes voluntarily opt-in to data harvesting. For example, there is a game called “Generation Zero” that was quite buggy and players had therefore lots of issues playing it. They were all the time complaining about it. The very same people were complaining that the developers started harvesting data about how the game works for people and how well the game runs for them, plus any bugs, crashes, issues, etc. to improve the game. To me, this is quite a schizophrenic attitude, because they complain about the game being buggy, while also refusing to help the developer fix the bugs.
I do not want to fall into the same double standard trap as them, so I voluntarily opted into their data collection about my game experience. After all, it’s my personal data, but it’s just my personal data about the game, not my life. This is an agreement I am more than willing to accept.

There are even more extreme examples, like e.g. American actors, that get millions of dollars per year, but in turn have NO privacy at all, anymore. Oftentimes, this does not happen voluntarily, but on the other hand, if you become a famous actor, you kind of have to expect that people will be interested in you and your privacy will shrink the more famous you become.

That of course does not mean, that OS users should be just mislead by the NSA, etc. in malicious ways, though even this specific topic is relative.

Let’s see it from a less absolute and more relativistic perspective:
If you have the choice between Apple OS, Microsoft OS and Canonical OS – which one do you choose? If privacy is of big value to you, you will choose Canonical OS (Ubuntu), even though it may have surveillance problems, as well.
Why?
Because the alternatives are much worse in the current world.

Finally, the harsh truth is, that sometimes you have no choice but to be the bad guy, even though you might not want to be. Let’s look at Microsoft and Apple.
Are they huge companies which often screw customers over? Yes.
Does that mean they also spy everything about you voluntarily? Not necessarily.
I do not know too much about Apple, so I will take Microsoft as an example.
Microsoft is known to have implemented huge metrics gatherers into their currently newest operating system, Windows 10. This is certainly voluntarily. However – if you compete with companies like Apple, Samsung, Xiaomi, etc. you must be so intrusive and gather all the user data you are allowed to, or you will go bankrupt and e.g. Apple will take over you place, because they certainly won’t stop screwing over their customers, just because Microsoft stopped doing it, in this hypothetical scenario.
This is even much so for state-driven surveillance. Imagine you are the CEO of Microsoft and the boss of the NSA or whatever tells you to build a backdoor into your OS. What are you gonna do? Say “no”? They will laugh at you, ask you kindly again and if you still refuse, they will either remove you from your CEO position through a fake scandal in mainstream news or will find other illegal ways of forcing this backdoor upon you and your company. Same goes for Apple. They sometimes refused to install this and that backdoor but let’s be honest –

the NSA asks you a favour you cannot refuse.

So no matter how long you try to fight back, if you have a huge significance and are legally just a huge company with lots of money, then you still have to obey some rules and some powers. These will win in the end, as long as the current system stands as it currently is.

To be honest, this is the best upshot I would give this discussion. I would only emphasize a bit more, that @Andy2 is in fact correct, that a lot of users do not have the choice, because they simply do not get to know what is happening to their personal data or why. Sometimes, they are actively mislead. All this is true. However, I am sure that most of the time the user has a responsibility.

You cannot be free, if you are afraid to use your own sanity.

That is roughly what Kant told us in one of his famous books. In order to achieve freedom, including freedom of choice, you have to dare to use your own rationality to either accept or refuse offers given you, whether it is a registration at Facebook, Twitter or using Ubuntu. In the end, most of the responsibility is most of the time to be sought within the consumer, not outside of him.

In my opinion, if a user is blindly registering on Facebook, (supposedly) not knowing that they lose their rights to their pictures, videos, pretty much their whole personal life, then I honestly think, that the user is 90% at fault in this scenario. If you are a person that almost reached the year of the Lord 2021, then I expect you to know by common sense, what Facebook will do to your freedom!

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Hey I hear what you are saying loud and clear but could I be so bold as to correct you on a couple of points…? Could I ask if you have any consideration for our planet…?
My 20 year old 15.6” (bigger is better) HP Notebook running stone age ubuntu….etc. What…?
Bit of maths required here but actually HP G60 was released here in 2008 and is now running Trisquel OS based on currently supported ubuntu 16.04 LTS – I trust you agree knowing how precise you usually are?

Not sure where you are coming from here or which websites you perceive as being problematic for the old girl? Having three different browsers all using DuckDuckGo search; I have no problem at all with Webmail near 1,500 messages, Ebay and newspapers such as the Gaurdian which have so many scripts running or watching videos. Perhaps you can point me to a webpage and I can then send you a short video clip of it loading? I thought that web loading speeds were more to do with your connection than hardware? I am using a 3 dongle which works great even in our Motorhome miles away from nearest town.
I took this Notebook with me around Europe, Scandinavia and China with my SolidWorks CAD programme, CAD files, docs, photos etc without problem except for those terrible windows and AV updates. Yes if you need more room buy an external drive for storage – I just use my external drive for backups. Personally I don’t trust the cloud or VPN encryption.
Could I interject an analogy…. Just like in the Land of the Free where bigger is better without question – where they drive huge inefficient leviathans to do some shopping – total overkill – where is the need for all that lard and power to get some groceries around the corner – why do we feel the need for such incredible technology and computing power to email a friend, post on a forum, visit websites or watch videos on Invidious? Why would we choose to live in a 1,000 room mansion with cupboards, wardrobes and other storage in each room, even with an inventory how would we muster the will to visit most of the rooms and their storage capacity – total overkill? (Thanks gamers for making our home CAD stations affordable) My ancient XP-Pro home built CAD station still amazes the boss and CAD jockeys with its speed rebuilding complex CAD models from the ground up and photo quality rendering.
Should we think deeply about what we are doing to our planet and the legacy to the next generations now that our devices have become yet another throw away disposable fashion must have as we wander blindly across the road or rail tracks scrolling away with our buds or headphones on – SPLAT – Sorry, my fault, I wandered off topic :blush:

Hi @easyt50 Howard, I suppose you have just updated both of your computers? :roll_eyes: I have just updated Trisquel again. After a couple of recent small 6Mb updates I have just updated again with an official 64.4Mb zipped download:-
update64MB
Still not as bad as Windows Vista whatever and then having to update and reboot only to find the AntiVirus needs updating as well - Still not done - as you lost the will to live with a virus trojan full system scan by which time I had forgotten why I had fired it up in the first place :crazy_face:
Thank you it’s FOSS for rescuing me from the gates of WinHELL
ps My SmartPhone which I flashed to GrapheneOS has just updated itself - prompting me to reboot it :slightly_smiling_face:

I finished 2 of 3 update / upgrades. Laptop - I upgraded from LM 19.3 to LM 20 and the upgrade went very well with only a couple of bumps. One desktop, I perform a clean install of LM 20 and that went very well until I try to remove LM 19.3.
I have one more desktop to install LM 20 onto. I think I will go with the clean install again and this time do the install over LM 19.3.

I wish you well with the upgrades. I have just fired up the Dell running ubuntu 16.04 LTS - Guess what another large 128MB zipped update! :roll_eyes:
Feels as though performance is getting incrementally slower.
Stay Safe

I’m pleased that Linux Mint got rid of Snap packages, they are too heavy and a lot of them don’t work. I’ve said it before Snap Packages reminds me of Ubuntu Store from many years ago, with every Ubuntu release Ubuntu or Canonical kept saying that Ubuntu Store had been fixed, it never worked and so everyone used Synaptic. I know that Martin Wimpress from Ubuntu Mate is doing some work on Snap Packages for Ubuntu, but even so they are still way to big and slow to open.